El Podcast

E138: Hidden Rules of Ownership Explained

Episode Summary

Law professors Michael Heller and James Salzman reveal how “ownership engineering”—from biotech patents to digital licenses—dictates every transaction and can even block vital drugs. They distill ownership into six core stories (possession, first in time, attachment, etc.) to help us spot and reshape these hidden rules.

Episode Notes

A deep dive into Michael Heller & James Salzman’s Mine, exploring how modern “ownership engineering” shapes innovation, resource access, and societal outcomes.

Guest Bios

• Michael Heller: Vice Dean & Professor of Real Estate Law at Columbia Law School; economist and property theorist; author of Mine: How the Hidden Rules of Ownership Control Our Lives; former World Bank advisor on post-communist property reforms.
• James Salzman: Professor of Environmental Law at UCLA & UC Santa Barbara; expert in resource management and property law; co-author of Mine; taught at Duke Law and advised on water policy and environmental regulation.

Topics Discussed

• Ownership gridlock in pharmaceuticals and biotech patents
• Copyright fragmentation (MLK speeches, music sampling)
• “Remote control” of behavior via ticketing (Duke basketball “camp-out”)
• Property conflicts: solar panels vs. redwood trees, adverse possession cases
• Digital ownership: AI training data, EV feature subscriptions, Amazon cart analogy
• Historical and international property transitions (post-Soviet housing reforms)
• Jurisdictional experiments in ownership law (state labs, South Dakota trusts, Puerto Rico tax incentives)

Three Main Points

• Ownership Engineering: Rights aren’t natural—they’re designed tools (“remote controls”) wielded to steer behavior, from seating fans to shaping markets.
• Gridlock & Fragmentation: Excessive, overly granular property rights (patents, copyrights) can stifle innovation and access—too many owners, too few outcomes.
• Digital vs. Physical Property: The shift to “ones and zeros” erodes traditional possession; corporations gain power to add or remove features, while users overestimate what they truly own.

Top Three Quotes

• “Possession plus time equals ownership—may not be just or moral, but it certainly is powerful.”
• “Savvy companies think of their ownership as a remote control: they press buttons to steer you without you even realizing it.”
• “In a world of ones and zeros, what you feel you own is often one-tenth of what you actually own—Amazon and Tesla already know this.”